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SwingTalk > Swing Dances - technique, issues, etc > How to teach musicality?

Posted by: In The Mood Apr 13, 2004 10:41 PM

So, I teach a swing class here in college, and tonight we wanted to teach a class on musicality, more to put the idea into our student's heads, and to give them a few things they could do within their basics that would allow them to go with the music a little more.
In Short, it was a huge flop.
So my question is, does anyone have any advice on teaching musicality. Any great excercises, or really good anything that will help for next time that we attempt to do this, or if we should just give up and hope they figure it out on their own.
Thanks a lot, this will help us tons if you can think of anything
Sacha

Posted by: D Nice Apr 14, 2004 04:56 PM

Try some real basic music theory and music appreciation exercises. Give them one range of physical expression to dance with to the music, and then switch it every few phrases or choruses. They find that certina forms are easier more comfortable and others a little harder. Practice will maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.

Posted by: frustratedmynx Apr 15, 2004 12:22 AM

yeah.

for example with breaks, you can teach them a couple of different ways to hit the break, and drill them. over and over. should put them in the practice of being aware of the music, anticipating certain parts of the music, and "formulating" different ways they can interpret it, on top of the actual practice of putting their bodies to move with their minds.

or something.

Posted by: brooklyn sue Apr 15, 2004 09:54 AM

I like one exercise DNice did early in my swing dancing learning. He had us listen to Ella scat and clap her vocals. Ooh. Very tricky and a very good way to learn to listen to how beats are swung.

Another thing I've used for quite a while, that came out of another discussion with DNice, is to listen for the instruments playing bottom, or the middle, or the top. And to learn to dance to any of these; instead of always dancing to the melody. I think this could be similar to what he was saying in his post above, in different words.

I spend hours in my car listening to swing with the bass cranked up, listening to the bottom. Or focusing on the middle--including the accents--which give me plenty of ways to tart up my dancing that are completely musical.

Spoken from today's spot on my never-ending learning curve.

Best,
Sue

Posted by: swinglo Apr 15, 2004 06:22 PM

To expand on what Damon said about basic music theory, here are some things that I find highly relevant:

Discuss phrasing - have them listen to several types of music and find where the phrases start and end. Talk about the idea of call and response in a phrase (some swing songs use this heavily, whereas others don't really do it, so you want to pick your examples carefully)

Discuss large structure - the two most common structures for swing songs are the 12-bar blues structure and some variation of the AABA structure with 16-bar phrases. Figuring out which type you're dancing to can often help you anticipate what will happen next in the song, and allow you to dance with the structure of the music. One very simple exercise is to play a piece of standar 12-bar blues ( in other words, each phrase consists of 6 8-cts) and ask the students to do nothing but swingouts except for the 5th 8-ct, where there is usually a more dramatic chord change, then finish their final swingout with a stomp off. The point of this exercise is to try to get them listening for the chord changes in the music as a way to know where they are in the structure. So the goal is that they do not need to count how many swingouts they've done - they should listen for it in the music.

Discuss motifs and breaks - Understanding how musicians will use a motif and repeat it through the song can give you something fun to play with. Listen for rhythmic or melodic motifs and see if you can come up with a certain footwork pattern or movement that you will do every time that motif shows up in the music. Once you've discussed the large structure of the music, you may be able to identify that a certain motif always happens during the same place in the phrasing, or that the break always happens at the end of the 16-bars, or something. Rather than just drilling on one song, play several songs that have the same structure, so it's not just about memorizing the song but understanding how the structure will give you clues about when things are going to happen.

Posted by: D Nice Apr 16, 2004 01:18 AM

QUOTE (swinglo @ Apr 15, 2004 07:22 PM)

Discuss large structure - the two most common structures for swing songs are the 12-bar blues structure and some variation of the AABA structure with 16-bar phrases.

AABA uses 8 bar phrases (a bar is four beats in 4/4, two bars make a dancers eight, four eights in a phrase, IOW 8 bars).

Posted by: swinglo Apr 16, 2004 04:33 PM

You're right - I didn't do the math correctly. However, I was actually thinking of the full 32-bars, not the 8-bar phrases. (In AABA, each letter represents an 8-bar phrase, so the whole thing takes 32 bars.)

Posted by: D Nice Apr 18, 2004 11:57 AM

QUOTE (swinglo @ Apr 16, 2004 05:33 PM)

My bad she said bars not beats... I read it wrong and then typoed my own correction.

Actually it doesn't, A refers to 8 bars, 32 beats that fit a single pattern that repeats. B refers to a 32 beat segment that breaks away from or creates a variation on the main pattern... the A.

If you count AABA as beats you end up with 128 beats, not 32.

Again, my bad.

Posted by: Cary Apr 19, 2004 10:10 AM

If I can belly up to the bar before we end up beating a dead horse ...

As far as I can understand, I think there is some confusion developing between beats and bars, the quarter notes and measures, respectively, with four beats to a bar in common (4/4) time.

I'd hate to see the hair-splitting become too hair-raising ...

Posted by: In The Mood Apr 19, 2004 04:15 PM

Ok, this is all great stuff, but I fear a group of people who a) have no dance background and b) might have no musical background would find this daunting, and I can't think how they would use this.
Does anyone have any specific excersizes for musicality, or specific breaks that are good to teach beginners, or a specific song that would be excellent?
Personally, I find it difficult to teach musicality because I don't really have set things I know or ever learnt to hit breaks, I just let the music tell me where to go, but I know many find it difficult, or impossible (especially when just starting out) to do that and get away from the basic, taught steps and moves.
Anyway, hit me back
Sacha

Posted by: swinglo Apr 19, 2004 07:39 PM

QUOTE (D Nice @ Apr 18, 2004 12:57 PM)

QUOTE

Actually it doesn't, A refers to 8 eights, 32 beats that fit a single pattern that repeats. B refers to a 32 beat segment that breaks away from or creates a variation on the main pattern... the A.

If you count AABA as beats you end up with 128 beats, not 32.

Damon, I don't know why you feel such a need to prove me wrong, but would you please do me the courtesy of reading what I write before you jump in to 'correct' me. I said 32 bars, as you can clearly see at the end of the quote you pulled. I did not say 32 beats. 32 bars times 4 beats per bar equals...drumroll please...128 beats.

Furthermore, if A refers to 8 eights, then it would equal 64 beats, not 32. That would bring your total up to 256 beats.

I have found that these types of patterns can occur at different levels in the music. For instance, there are some songs that have an AABA pattern at within a single 8-bar phrase as well as in the 32-bars. Also, some songs have that type of pattern on a larger scale ( like each letter represents 32-bars, or something of that nature. ) So we may be talking about different levels. But I don't know, because your math is confusing.

Posted by: swinglo Apr 19, 2004 08:05 PM

QUOTE (In The Mood @ Apr 19, 2004 05:15 PM)

Ok, this is all great stuff, but I fear a group of people who a) have no dance background and b) might have no musical background would find this daunting, and I can't think how they would use this.

Understanding the structure of the music allows you to better sense where the major changes or breaks will occur. Once you've learned how to identify the musical patterns, it's easier to plan specific moves or categories of movement that fit what the music is doing.

QUOTE

Does anyone have any specific excersizes for musicality, or specific breaks that are good to teach beginners, or a specific song that would be excellent?

I think quick stops are a good place to start, but it depends on the skill level of the group. I don't like to teach quick stops to true beginners because it's easy to yank an arm out if your technique is not good. For real beginners, it might be best to start with things you can do in closed or side-by-side position. There's a charleston variation that comes to mind, but I'm not sure what people call it around here; It was called "Johnny Drop" by most folks in Seattle.

QUOTE

Personally, I find it difficult to teach musicality because I don't really have set things I know or ever learnt to hit breaks, I just let the music tell me where to go, but I know many find it difficult, or impossible (especially when just starting out) to do that and get away from the basic, taught steps and moves.

Different people have different comfort zones. Some people are just not comfortable venturing away from what they've been taught. I applaud you for wanting to give beginning students a sense of musicality, but it's important to recognize that musicality is something that takes time to develop. As you said, if they have no dance or musical background, they will have a very hard time with a lot of these concepts. All of the suggestions I gave you are better for dancers who have already attained a certain level of comfort and skill with the fundamentals.

One way to start beginning students at least thinking about musicality is to have them listen to how active the music is and mirror that activity in how 'big' they dance. So they might extend further or kick higher when the music is very active or loud, and keep it very contained when the music is quiet. This gets them listening to the music as they dance, which is definitely an important step in the right direction.

Good luck!

Posted by: MINI b Apr 20, 2004 05:44 PM

I took a class from Angela in London that dealt with musicality and it was really good.

She started by playing about 1 minute of a song and picked out a "musical" part of the song. Say a repeating horn or piano that wasn't constantly in the song but did repeat itself.
She emphasized what SHE heard in the music to us the second time she played it. Then she showed what could be done with that little bit of musicality, to emphasize it or change your footwork to hit the notes.
Next she had everyone in the class work with it, while she went around and corrected or helped you to get it.

She did this with 2 different songs, leaving about 10 minutes or more for us all to change partners and play with what she heard.

Then at the end of the class she played a third song and asked us to find something musical that we heard and make a "step" to emphasize it.
She played the song again and had us show everyone else in the class what we heard and how we emphasized it.
Then she had us practice "chucking it in" to our normal dancing.

It was a really good class that didn't go into any of the bar and beat stuff. It really encouraged everyone to think about it more and to play with the music more.

Hope that helps!

Posted by: Green Gretsch Apr 21, 2004 09:06 AM

I'd have to agree with swinglo. AABA structure is a good start for people who know 8 count moves. Its very easy to point out the musical phrases and if people can hear the B phrase in the song, it'll point them in the right direction.

You could do some choreography. 2 swingouts, 1 8count wheel, 1 8 count tuck turn or something. There are better patterns that point out the structure better but I've forgotten how to lindyhop.

One really good break hitter song is "this business of love" by domino (mask soundtrack). I think it does a AABA with a repeating stop on count 1 of the last A. You can use Lovica's suggestions to this song especially the Side-By-Side-Charleston-With-A-Stomp-on-Five or the Johnny's Drop. Either one will be fun.

Also, learning how do dance in 2's helps out a lot but I think it requires a good level of comfort to be useful.

How beginner are these students? I prefer connection and other fundamentals over musicality.

Posted by: D Nice Apr 22, 2004 11:41 AM

.check above for clarification and apology.

Posted by: swinglo Apr 22, 2004 07:29 PM

I didn't mean to jump down your throat about it either - just reread my message and realized it sounded more harsh than I meant it. Sorry about that.

So I was thinking about good example songs since Sacha asked for specifics, and here are just a few well-known songs that I thought of with a strong AABA form:

32-bar AABA
It Don't Mean A Thing (if it ain't got that swing)
Tuxedo Junction
Corner Pocket
'Tain't Wha'cha Do

Posted by: cucu Aug 2, 2005 08:37 AM

Hi
I'm trying to understand music structure, because even if they're songs that I heard thousands of times, very often I go out of sync or do a break where there are no breaks, or miss breaks.
Obviously I have no intuition for rhytm, so I'm trying to understand it in a more intellectual way.

I found something interesting here, but can't understand what is 1a and 1e:
http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/music_and_timing.html
could someone explain me please?

And for example, when a break comes,should I continue counting as usual or wait?

and I'm not sure how the 8 counts match with dancing, I usually count 1-2 when I do a rock step or quickball change, then 1-2-3 for one triple and so on. So, if I do basic steps, I feel like even if I'm counting 1-2, 1-2-3, 1-2-3, this doesn't match with the 8 counts, 'cause 1-2-3 are faster, may be if I do a whip or swingout, doing 1-2, 1-2-3, 1-2, 1-2-3 then I can match with 8 counts.

Also I'm trying to understand the structure of "all the cats join in" because we're doing a choreography (just for fun), and I think I'll do it best if I can understand the music. I feel like it has 6 x eight counts and then it changes....

Posted by: btaste Aug 2, 2005 12:08 PM

Have dance partners sing to each other

It's embarassing, yes. But it helps dance partners hear how they're interpreting the music and as they sing the parts, their movements will coincide.

Paul Overton and Sharon Ashe used this exercise often. Homer (from tango) does the same.

Posted by: Green Gretsch Aug 3, 2005 02:08 PM

the 1a and 1e are notations for a tri-ple-et (tri-ple-step) pattern of 3 to a beat.

When a break comes, you should continue counting as normal because the music will resume at a predictable place...either 1 or 5. Your movements can accent that space by freezing or playing around but if you need to count to hit a break, its good to count through the break.

you shouldn't count 1-2. 1-2-3 1-2-3

the count is 1,2 3&4 5&6. In the above pattern it looks like you have 8 numbers but the 2's are up beats so it actually spans 6 beats.

so a whip count would be 1,2, 3&4 5,6 7&8,

Posted by: byau Aug 10, 2005 11:16 AM

neat thread on a subject i find interesting .... because there are so many elements to it (both musicality and styling). there's teaching them specific moves and stylings (i.e. "stuff it down your throat" musicality) and there's also letting them experiment with their own styling (i.e. "enhance your musical inner child" musicality).

by the way, Steven and Virginie used a singing to each other method at Beantown also .. not sure if it's the same as P&S but it was pretty cool... leads sang bass, follows sang melody.

here are a few exercises we use for the "enhancing your inner musicality" side of it .. a bit challenging for some but the good thing is we can do it with all levels and backgrounds (so knowledge of musical structure and phrasing is not required) .. i think you might find this helpful since it seems your sense of musicality is similar.

exercise 1: dancing while driving exercise
basically pretend you're driving a car and bopping around to music out of your stereo... we have everyone sit and close their eyes. .. we'll play music (swing and non-swing) and ask them just to move how they feel like moving .. most people at one time or another have danced in the car

exercise 2: dancing in the shower exercise
same as above but now you're standing as if you're in the shower (eyes still closed, clothes still on)..sheri and i will nudge them if they start getting to close to something or someone

exercise 3: walk down the street exercise
you get the idea .. same thing but now they're walking (probably have to do this with the eyes open) ... not that most people have ever walked down the street dancing and bopping but it's the next logical step

the idea is if the brain is concentrating on doing moves, it can't listen to the music ... so take the Lindy part out and just dance .. the next part is more complicated (as you suggested) ... incorporating the dance back in..here are a few exercise for this:

exercise 4: four 8-count break
pick a four 8-count song ("wadayawant" by casey mcgill is good) .. have them three swingouts and on the fourth 8-count stop and just dance

exericse 5: slow, slow, quick quick quick quick
three swingouts, on the fourth 8-count stop and just dance but have them vocally say "slow, slow, quick quick quick quick" (on counts 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8).. you'll notice just about all breaks people hit will follow this rhythm

from there, you can transition into the "stuff it down your throat" by coming up with a number of slow,slow,quick,quick,quick,quick patterns to have them do on the fourth 8count. Jazz steps work really good here.

anyway, if you try any of these out, i'd love to hear how it goes!
ben

Posted by: HappyFunBa11 Aug 10, 2005 11:47 AM

wow. that was pretty inspired.

Ben, don't give away your trade secrets!!!

*writing them all down*

Posted by: avh4 Aug 27, 2005 01:10 AM

Looks like this thread was started a long time ago, but since it's been picked up recently, I've got a few things to add...

Sacha, at OJDF this year I sat in on Millie and Barkley's musicality class on Saturday, and I was very impressed -- I thought they did a good job of explaining musicality a bit to people who had no idea what to listen for in the music.

The first thing they did was have everyone sit down and listen to two songs, and they explained some basic musical forms: an 8-bar form like the shim-sham, and a 12-bar blues form, and they talked about how each chorus will have some form of repetition, like AABA or AAAB or ABAC form -- and that if you can recognize the form you'll know what's going to happen next in the music while you're dancing. Then they had us listen to the songs and call out "A" or "B" when the repeated sections came up, and then dance swingouts and freeze on the break which came up in the A section (sorry, I can't remember the song).

The other thing they talked about was syncopating your footwork to match a rhythm in the music. For this the music was Splanky. They had us dance swingouts, but use a different footwork pattern that lined up with the rhythm of the melody. Then they had us try trading the syncopation with our partner, since in the music the trumpets trade the melody with the saxophones.

And as a final note, they talked about how each partner can listen to a different instrument and dance to that instrument, maybe doing footwork syncopation as just explained, or dancing to the level (moving up or down with the line of the music). Notably, each partner might be doing different things, but it fits together because both partners are drawing from the music.

Also, Dax Hock and Doug Silton did a workshop in LA several months ago, and for the musicality part they put on (I think, Moten Swing). First they had everyone clap to the hits, then had everyone walk in a circle in time with the music and clap, and then finally instead of clapping everyone was supposed to move some part of their body (head, arm, shoulder, foot, etc) to accentuate the hit. That exercise didn't seem to go over very well with most of the students, but it might be a good thing for people to practice on their own.

So... just some more ideas.

Personally, I think the best way to improve musicality is to listen to live jazz solos instead of simply listening to common recorded music all the time.

Posted by: In The Mood Aug 27, 2005 04:28 AM

Thanks avh4,
it's funny you mention OJDF because I was one of the people who helped organize that event, sadly I missed everything from Millie and Barkley, including dancing with Millie (grrrrr)

Anyway, good insight, I guess I should watch people teach musicality. It's difficult for me because I've been a musician all my life, and I guess I've seen so many people struggle with 'musicality' in music performance all through they're lives, it's tough for me to teach it. I often think to myself "why don't they just listen to the music, and do something musical with it" but that doesn't pass on to students so well.
I guess I should think more about how I actually bbreak down the music while I'm dancing, what voice(s) I listen to, and how my body interacts with the music, because I definitely consider musicality in swingdancing more than just doing a pose on a break.
Anyway, more to think about.

Sacha